HeroClix Online Forums

Go Back   HeroClix Online Forums > Main Category > Rules Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 02-19-2014, 12:10 PM
Orpheus Orpheus is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 286
Default

Quote:
[/LIST]
Future Design: Suggestions
  • Create a Name and Description field for Lobby games for players to customize.
    (ex. Title: "9 Realms" / Desc: "Asgardian and Deity keyword only. No Colossals.") This prevents having to program a routine to access data and/or subjecting all players to an arbitrary list only created by the most active/vocal players.
  • When creating a game, a player can have the option to use Banked Time or not. If not, turn duration can be fixed to n minutes (default: 4 min/turn; 10 turns per player).
  • Implement "Final Turn." When the timer hits 00:00, the current player gets one final action for that turn, and the turn ends, with each player getting one last turn.
  • Alternative: Rollover or a separate field to represent Banked Time in nn:nn format.
ME LOVES IT !!

This would also be a great way for HCO to test things, i.e. if everyone uses one feature they can implement it as the default feature.

PLEASE DO THAT HCO !!!

Quote:
What's truly missing from HCO is an experience representative of tabletop, in terms of enforcing timer rules. Indecisiveness and response time varies from player to player, but if someone can't commit to doing anything or is substituting HCO as a platform to wax psychological, HCO is probably not for them.
LOL agreed.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 02-19-2014, 12:17 PM
Orpheus Orpheus is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 286
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by howard brock View Post
I disagree somewhat here. I do not like each player gets one turn to complete. That is not how it is done in tabletop. The reason the game does not end at zero is because this was very much exploited by players so HCO installed the extended variable time. I view the timer just like I do receiving a 10 minute warning from the Judge at a tournament.

Judges are supposed to announce time at the halfway mark and about the 10 minute mark in the game. Since we have a clock the 30 minute warning is not needed. The variable timer at the end gives us the last warning and I think it works.
In a game we had you seemed to know exactly how much time was left, is it a fixed number ? In which case it doesn't change much, really.
Quote:
Giving each player having a last turn can exploited as well by giving one of the players a large advantage knowing that it is his last turn and his opponent can do nothing. So going to that just sets up a new kind exploitation with more anger and accusations.
Not with the *finish current turn, do one more turn* pattern. We've done it in tournies for year, I can assure you it's totally different, there is planning sure but from both players and I've never seen it amount to anything close to stalling.

Quote:
The current system we have is good. My only problem is the abuse of banked time at the end of the game. That and the fact that some players view using all their time as completely legal. Their view is that are not breaking any game rules and they could care less what Heroclix etiquette is.
My point is the system is fine. It will never be perfect but I think it can be slightly improved by tweaking banked time at the end of the game. Even then there will still be players that stall. We can only try to make it harder and just have to live with it when it does occur. Despite how mad it can make us.
The current system isn't good if it can be abused by such players who do not know / don't understand / don't care about / walk all over the etiquette.

If we can get a system that prevents, say, 80% of those instances from happening, it would be a better system wouldn't it ?!

And what's good with Spiderham's suggestion is that players who prefer the "old" system can still use it, and abuse it if they're abusers.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 02-19-2014, 01:32 PM
thebigham thebigham is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 65
Default

How do you differentiate stalling vs taking your time as to not make a mistake or make the best move?

In the scenario which caused this whole thing there was 20secs on the my clock when I hit end turn. I was debating do I perplex batman to increase range use outwit then move or do I use outwit then attack or do I use perplex to increase def and then move? Yes I was aware time was in ??? status and the game could end any minute. It was crucial. I had points lead in a league match against a very well known great player. I wanted to be thorough. I wanted to work through each scenario, which I didn't get to. He mentions play fast, so I made a decision and lived with it.

In the same game for OPs first 4 or so turns he only had moved 2/6 figs a total of what 8 spaces? But thats position not stalling? I understand you don't have to use all your actions in one turn but that seemed very "cheese". There was precious time lost there.

OP you have admitted you would not have said anything if you had the lead. I was rushed because you were losing. That is the part that gets me. I was not stalling.

So I'll ask again why have timers if I am not suppose to use it to make the best move I can? I already feel rushed when it flashes bank time. This UI leaves much to desire in regards to counting squares and seeing the whole field.

Why is it just not a set number of turns then? You get X amount of turns.

Are you expected to play bang bang bang? If so the learning curve is super steep. The timer is there and it will auto end turn if I run out of time which happens to me a lot. Or I'll just end turn if I cant make up my mind and it flashes bank time. When I am done my actions, I also like to go back and click on each fig to make sure I didnt forget a free action like outwit etc. And of course there is reading through the oppositions dials. Or sometimes I try to look them up fast or when its there turn to see who has what clicks etc. All that takes time. Time which is limited. Time which if I run out will end my turn in the middle of it.

Can someone address the 4 questions? I mean people want this site/game to grow. Trust me in my past 6wks and 1 day on this game I could of quit bout 10 different times if I didn't have good friends on here. I am sure I am not the only new person that has been treated poorly by Vets. New players are already at a disadvantage because they dont know all the rules that arent properly explained like TTPC. They dont have ALL the pieces. They don't know the UI. And they don't play as Fast.

I will still continue to play but know this I am not stalling, but I am not going to rush into a bad move either. And if its fair game to "position" stall in the beginning of the game I will do so. I always thought THAT was bad etiquette. To me that is worse than using your play clock. My first love is football and running down the clock to kick the game winning field goal is smart coaching.

Sorry for the commotion. I take nothing personally and do not hate or hold a grudge against anyone. I will gladly play OP again if ever given a chance.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 02-19-2014, 03:26 PM
Orpheus Orpheus is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 286
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigham View Post
How do you differentiate stalling vs taking your time as to not make a mistake or make the best move?
You can't, so you have to rely on the fairness of your opponent. Which is why he should be made aware of the situation.

HCO is a fairly small community, if some players behave consistently in a bad way it gets know fairly quickly, and I know at least one player that is avoided by the vast majority of the community (he mainly leaves games when he thinks he can't win, and picks the ones where he has the advantage).

Quote:
In the scenario which caused this whole thing there was 20secs on the my clock when I hit end turn. I was debating do I perplex batman to increase range use outwit then move or do I use outwit then attack or do I use perplex to increase def and then move? Yes I was aware time was in ??? status and the game could end any minute. It was crucial. I had points lead in a league match against a very well known great player. I wanted to be thorough. I wanted to work through each scenario, which I didn't get to. He mentions play fast, so I made a decision and lived with it.
I understand. I will tell you how it felt from my PoV : I knew that if I have a chance to make my roll and didn't fail it (I think it was a 5+) the game was mine, if not it would have been yours. I had absolutely no idea of the time left, could have been a lot, could have been 1-2 seconds. I wasn't sure if you were taking your time for valid reasons or not, so I (politely I think) wanted to make you aware of the situation.

As it happens, a few more seconds wouldn't have changed things, as there was maybe 1 mn left after I made my succesful action. Of course, had you really stalled I would have had no chance of making that move.

It happened very often to me that each action in the end of a game was decisive, and that each of the players played fast. And yes, it pissed me off when time ran out on me, but if there was no stalling on the part of my opponent I could only get mad at bad luck. I also try in the end to act fast, if possible not to the point of doing something really stupid (although it happened lol).

Quote:
In the same game for OPs first 4 or so turns he only had moved 2/6 figs a total of what 8 spaces? But thats position not stalling? I understand you don't have to use all your actions in one turn but that seemed very "cheese". There was precious time lost there.
Not moving all your pieces isn't losing time, it's strategical positioning.

Even totally passing your turn in the beginning, which I didn't, is a valid "move" : you leave the initiative to your opponent, and / or wait for the first turn immunity to pass. Of course it would be ridiculous if each player did nothing or nearly nothing for turns in a row, and sometimes it happens, in games with broken figs where the Alpha Strike means everything, but I believe such situations are bad for the game, and it's the duty of each player to try to circumvent it without throwing their game to the wolves.

Finally, you can use your time as you want during the course of the game, as long as you're not using the running of the clock (including when the timer is still visible). I do, though, consider it impolite to just let turns run and "not be there" for a while, usually when it happens either players were disconnected or they say "sorry the kid was crying".
Banking time is there to avoid such behaviour during the game, but still a sort of etiquette has to be applied.

For an experienced player I'm not a very fast one, because I usually weight all my options before acting, which takes time especially in the beginning of the game (because it is so vital, and because later on you can think during your opponent's turn). But careful planning in the beginning has nothing to do with stalling.

Quote:
OP you have admitted you would not have said anything if you had the lead. I was rushed because you were losing. That is the part that gets me. I was not stalling.
I understand that you were not, and that you're a fair player even if you had trouble understanding this issue.

As I have said already, had I been in the same position, I would have played my actions at a normal, non-stalling rate, and prayed for the outcome in the end (to no particular god ; maybe Cthulhu).

Quote:
So I'll ask again why have timers if I am not suppose to use it to make the best move I can? I already feel rushed when it flashes bank time. This UI leaves much to desire in regards to counting squares and seeing the whole field.

Why is it just not a set number of turns then? You get X amount of turns.
It is a very valid point. As I told you ingame chat today I have played lots of 10-turns tournaments, and it works fine. The only difficulty in Tabletop is to keep track of the turns, which wouldn't be a problem online, so it might be the best solution. I propose to debate such options on a separate topic, that I'll create later.

Quote:
Are you expected to play bang bang bang? If so the learning curve is super steep. The timer is there and it will auto end turn if I run out of time which happens to me a lot. Or I'll just end turn if I cant make up my mind and it flashes bank time. When I am done my actions, I also like to go back and click on each fig to make sure I didnt forget a free action like outwit etc. And of course there is reading through the oppositions dials. Or sometimes I try to look them up fast or when its there turn to see who has what clicks etc. All that takes time. Time which is limited. Time which if I run out will end my turn in the middle of it.
Of course, you have to take the necessary time to play during the game. Everybody does it, except a few players who must be cyborgs.
The rest is all about etiquette, common sense and courtesy.

Quote:
Can someone address the 4 questions? I mean people want this site/game to grow. Trust me in my past 6wks and 1 day on this game I could of quit bout 10 different times if I didn't have good friends on here. I am sure I am not the only new person that has been treated poorly by Vets. New players are already at a disadvantage because they dont know all the rules that arent properly explained like TTPC. They dont have ALL the pieces. They don't know the UI. And they don't play as Fast.
New players should be aided in growing, I always do my best towards that effect, be it by posting tutorials here or telling my new opponents their mistakes after the game. You play quite well BTW, so your learning curve isn't that steep (after all you DID nearly win that game).

[QUOTE=thebigham;17563]I will still continue to play but know this I am not stalling, but I am not going to rush into a bad move either. And if its fair game to "position" stall in the beginning of the game I will do so. I always thought THAT was bad etiquette. To me that is worse than using your play clock. My first love is football and running down the clock to kick the game winning field goal is smart coaching.

Well, taking your time to position is part of the game, I even don't see how it could be used to stall because it's nigh impossible to predict the effects it would have later in the game (you can predict the probable outcome of a game by looking at a team, but then losing time would probably change nothing on that account).

Anyway it's all in the spirit : as long as you just do your best to play and be respectful and your opponent does same, there can be little problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigham View Post
Sorry for the commotion. I take nothing personally and do not hate or hold a grudge against anyone. I will gladly play OP again if ever given a chance.
No grudge on my part either. I think eveyone gets that you're not a staller, and I understand how it must have felt on your part. Yes, by asking you to play fast I was ensuring that I, too, had a fair shot at winning that game (can't be sure of anything), but I can get how you felt I was pressuring you, even if it wasn't the intent. Probably wouldn't have happened in a live game, body language, tonality, all that.

The funniest part being that, outside of a clear intention from you of letting the clock run, nothing would have changed (as we saw later but couldn't know at the time). But at least it had the merit of raising some interesting points and questions.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 02-19-2014, 03:50 PM
howard brock's Avatar
howard brock howard brock is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Huntsville Alabama
Posts: 224
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orpheus View Post

Not with the *finish current turn, do one more turn* pattern. We've done it in tournies for year, I can assure you it's totally different, there is planning sure but from both players and I've never seen it amount to anything close to stalling.
This is a bad idea. We have debated it for years on Tabletop. I participated in a conversation about stalling on tabletop with WizKids at Gen Con. I even know some venues here is the USA that adopted this. On tabletop per rules we are given a last action when time is called not a completion of my turn and opponents turn. Why? Because if I know this is my absolute last turn I am going to play it different than normal. It also does not resolve stalling for if stalling is to my advantage I can still do it whether I get a last turn or not. Incorporating a last turn throws us off even more of the actual game.

Totally against this idea.
__________________
ROC Director
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 02-19-2014, 04:04 PM
howard brock's Avatar
howard brock howard brock is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Huntsville Alabama
Posts: 224
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigham View Post
[B]
So I'll ask again [B]why have timers if I am not suppose to use it to make the best move I can?
Timers are a necessity online. If the clock was take out completely then games could last hours or a player literally could walk away from his computer to avoid a loss. So since we have to have the clock then we must have timers. Without timers a player could KO a fig and then do nothing until the clock ran out.

Now just because we have timers that doesn't meant mean that a player is entitled to milk every second of his turn. Is it allowed. Yes. Why? because there is not a way to prevent it. There is no Judge as there is on Tabletop. A Judge can take action if he feels a player is stalling or taking his turns too long. I have never seen Judge step in this scenario when it was not appropriate.

So what we have is the best that we can come up with and still stay in line with the actual game. In general this is not a big problem. Abuse occurs in a minimum amount of games. When it does the player that used stalling in victory generally gets raged at by his opponent after the match.
__________________
ROC Director
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 02-19-2014, 04:10 PM
howard brock's Avatar
howard brock howard brock is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Huntsville Alabama
Posts: 224
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigham View Post
[B]

Why is it just not a set number of turns then? You get X amount of turns.

.
This changes the dynamics of the game. I was introduce to Heroclix in this manner. The venue I started at used this and I did not know better. In this scenario a player makes a team and tries to KO a figure and then knowing how many turns are left, simply runs.
__________________
ROC Director
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 02-19-2014, 05:47 PM
Orpheus Orpheus is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 286
Default

I have created a new topic to debate on the Timers Vs Rounds.

It is here : http://hcforums.icarusstudios.com/hc...7570#post17570

GM, I propose that all relevant answers here are displaced there.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 02-19-2014, 05:50 PM
Orpheus Orpheus is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 286
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by howard brock View Post
This changes the dynamics of the game. I was introduce to Heroclix in this manner. The venue I started at used this and I did not know better. In this scenario a player makes a team and tries to KO a figure and then knowing how many turns are left, simply runs.
How is that not possible with timers ? Players run in games all the time. AND they can play slower on purpose, which makes it worse.

At least with turns the other player knows he has the time to pursue, no matter what. The maps are not infinite (even with the Rainbow Bridge)...
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 02-19-2014, 07:33 PM
howard brock's Avatar
howard brock howard brock is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Huntsville Alabama
Posts: 224
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orpheus View Post
How is that not possible with timers ? Players run in games all the time. AND they can play slower on purpose, which makes it worse.

At least with turns the other player knows he has the time to pursue, no matter what. The maps are not infinite (even with the Rainbow Bridge)...
I totally disagree with you. Totally changes dynamics and is not per WizKids setup. Changes the whole way a player plays the end game. I have seen this in person. Bad idea.
__________________
ROC Director
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.