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  #11  
Old 02-18-2014, 09:58 PM
spider_ham spider_ham is offline
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Seconded.

Without an official judge on HCO, the clock should step in to enforce good sportsmanship.

I'd suggest the elimination of banked time in the last 6 minutes (three-quarter mark), with each turn at that point lasting 1 minute-- that's a total of three final turns for each player. Use the time spent by your opponent to plan ahead.

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Originally Posted by howard brock View Post
...

I think one thing that HCO could do to help this would be to make all players banked time zero once the five minute mark hit.
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  #12  
Old 02-18-2014, 10:06 PM
Orpheus Orpheus is offline
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Actually, in one of our venues we had a great rule, that should be enforced in all venues, and would work perfectly for HCO !

We called it the Doc's rules, and it goes as follows :

When time runs out, the current turn (player 1 / Player 2) is finished. Then another round (Player 1 / Player 2) is played, and that's it !

It is the best possible rule because :

- the time that it takes to finish that turn and play the next one doesn't matter, everything is possible within the limits of bank time

- it is very hard to know 2 turns in advance what will happen, so stalling before that usually has no interest at all. There might be exceptions but they would be very rare and easy to spot.

- each player has the same number of turns

- if it gives a slight advantage to one of the players, it's to player 2 ; if so, that balances a bit the advantage that player 1 has, so it's all good.

I suppose it would be fairly easy to implement in HCO, and it would possibly help the game.

What do you guys think ?
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  #13  
Old 02-18-2014, 10:07 PM
mwposse mwposse is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigham View Post
I am sick and tired as a new player here of being bully for not playing the "right" way. I don't see how a computer game where we all play by the same rules one person can cheat. I am not a computer hacker so how is it cheating if I am playing within the rules of the game!
I have been on the site for more than 2 years and this definitely happens way too much. I see it happening all the time in chat. The most common seems to be when people "yell" at others for playing "cheese" in a friendly game. It also happens in chat in and out of games when an opponent isn't playing fast enough for their opponent. Heck, it happens if someone chooses to list something in the AH for more than others think they should. He's not making this up. I am not saying this is what Orpheus is doing, but there are definitely veteran players on here who are too quick to assume the worst about their opponent and can come off as bullies.

We need this site to grow. Being respectful to our opponents and taking the time to listen to an explanation before flaming them can only help us to reach that goal.
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  #14  
Old 02-18-2014, 10:09 PM
mwposse mwposse is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orpheus View Post
Actually, in one of our venues we had a great rule, that should be enforced in all venues, and would work perfectly for HCO !

We called it the Doc's rules, and it goes as follows :

When time runs out, the current turn (player 1 / Player 2) is finished. Then another round (Player 1 / Player 2) is played, and that's it !

It is the best possible rule because :

- the time that it takes to finish that turn and play the next one doesn't matter, everything is possible within the limits of bank time

- it is very hard to know 2 turns in advance what will happen, so stalling before that usually has no interest at all. There might be exceptions but they would be very rare and easy to spot.

- each player has the same number of turns

- if it gives a slight advantage to one of the players, it's to player 2 ; if so, that balances a bit the advantage that player 1 has, so it's all good.

I suppose it would be fairly easy to implement in HCO, and it would possibly help the game.

What do you guys think ?
I think this is a much better idea than killing bank time during the end of the game. It seems fair to both players regardless of their experience with the game, the UI, or lag problems.
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  #15  
Old 02-18-2014, 10:40 PM
thebigham thebigham is offline
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Very simply can someone define stalling

Why are you force to "rush"

Why aren't you allow to take your time and use what is allotted to you to make a smart sound decision




Often times i find myself counting squares, Changing map angles to better count squares and making sure the move i make is the right one. Or figuring out the right order to make such moves. Now this is going to be lingering in my mind and a target on my back. I don't want to be rushed or blackballed or accused of anything. I see it like NFL and the play clock. I should be allow to use that time to make sure I make the correct moves. And like mwposse said when its that late in the match every move is even more crucial. Its hard to plan ahead when you don't know what they will do first. Sigh who knew something fun would turn into such a headache.
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  #16  
Old 02-18-2014, 11:00 PM
Bell Bell is offline
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so I missed alot on my drive home...

As for the match that started this discussion, it is going to stand as a win for Orpheus.

Now in regards to stalling, I have discussed the issue with Thebigham and I do not believe he was purposefully stalling. From my understanding it was a close match and already was in bank time. Bigham was taking his time/being diligent to make the right move to try and win, he got a KO and took the lead. Now I can not be sure but from my understanding at this point Orpheus told him to hurry up and end his turn so that Orph got a chance to go before time ran out, which Bigham did. Orph then KO'd one of Bigham's figs retreated his other guys and time ran out with Orph as the winner.

Now I do not know exactly how the conversation between the two of you went but I think it is clear that Bigham felt he was being pressured by Orpheus and accused of cheating when he was not cheating and only trying to figure out the best way to make a play so he could win.

Also I am sure that Orpheus was just trying to make sure that Bigham was not purposefully stalling, and the whole issue was blown out of proportion b/c we had two competitive players both wanting to win their match.

Now in regards to what is cheating on HCO there are really only 3 ways I can see possible for someone to cheat and those are using illegal figs, consistently passing their turn and stalling. Using illegal figs is pretty easy to enforce b/c if someone does such a thing then the other player will tell them and they will have the opportunity to fix their build or take a loss.

Personally I do not think you should ever go more than one turn in a row with out making an action (a real action that gives you a token) as this is as bad as stalling imo. I thought there was a rule that if you did not make an action for three consecutive turns then you lost (might have just been a house rule I used to use tho).

As for stalling, this is very hard to enforce as everyone has said the only way to know for sure is to be watching the game, and even then you can not tell if the opponent is planning out moves or litterally just sitting there and letting time run out. I have had time run out on me many times, not b/c I am letting the clock run but b/c I am trying to figure out the best move (and I have been playing on here for almost a year).

When it comes to how to define stalling on here the only thing that I can say that can be visibly seen in a match is if someone has used all of their possible actions that turn and then do not immediately click end turn. The other possibility is that a player makes an action then just lets their time run way down before making another action. This however can not just be blatantly called stalling b/c there is no way to know if they are thinking or just stalling. In this situation I suggest doing what Orph did and politely asking your opponent to make their move. The opponent could then reply that they are thinking what they want to do (whether they are or not) and hopefully be encouraged to speed up.

Now I do feel that with the bank time and timers a player should be allowed to take their time between actions to be sure that they make the best possible move. Towards the end of a game a player will want to put in more thought to their moves which could be misinterpreted as stalling so this is a fine line.

So my definition of stalling is simply: purposefully letting the clock run down with the intention to get closer to a time out.

I do like Orph's idea of giving the player who's turn it was not when the timer hit 0 another turn.
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  #17  
Old 02-19-2014, 12:51 AM
spider_ham spider_ham is offline
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Ultimately, it's the static design of match creation that is enabling stalling-- and other issues-- to some degree.

Current Design: Like
  • Auto-forfeit a player after n turns of inactivity (usually 3).

Current Design: Dislike
  • Lack of being able to label/name games in the Lobby.
  • Banked time represented graphically, as opposed to an actual number value.
  • No "Final Turn" mode when the main timer expires. Banked Time does not occur in tabletop-- when the judge calls "time," the game's over.

Future Design: Suggestions
  • Create a Name and Description field for Lobby games for players to customize.
    (ex. Title: "9 Realms" / Desc: "Asgardian and Deity keyword only. No Colossals.") This prevents having to program a routine to access data and/or subjecting all players to an arbitrary list only created by the most active/vocal players.
  • When creating a game, a player can have the option to use Banked Time or not. If not, turn duration can be fixed to n minutes (default: 4 min/turn; 10 turns per player).
  • Implement "Final Turn." When the timer hits 00:00, the current player gets one final action for that turn, and the turn ends, with each player getting one last turn.
  • Alternative: Rollover or a separate field to represent Banked Time in nn:nn format.

What's truly missing from HCO is an experience representative of tabletop, in terms of enforcing timer rules. Indecisiveness and response time varies from player to player, but if someone can't commit to doing anything or is substituting HCO as a platform to wax psychological, HCO is probably not for them.

Last edited by spider_ham; 02-19-2014 at 12:59 AM.
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  #18  
Old 02-19-2014, 02:28 AM
howard brock's Avatar
howard brock howard brock is offline
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I disagree somewhat here. I do not like each player gets one turn to complete. That is not how it is done in tabletop. The reason the game does not end at zero is because this was very much exploited by players so HCO installed the extended variable time. I view the timer just like I do receiving a 10 minute warning from the Judge at a tournament.

Judges are supposed to announce time at the halfway mark and about the 10 minute mark in the game. Since we have a clock the 30 minute warning is not needed. The variable timer at the end gives us the last warning and I think it works.

Giving each player having a last turn can exploited as well by giving one of the players a large advantage knowing that it is his last turn and his opponent can do nothing. So going to that just sets up a new kind exploitation with more anger and accusations.

The current system we have is good. My only problem is the abuse of banked time at the end of the game. That and the fact that some players view using all their time as completely legal. Their view is that are not breaking any game rules and they could care less what Heroclix etiquette is.

My point is the system is fine. It will never be perfect but I think it can be slightly improved by tweaking banked time at the end of the game. Even then there will still be players that stall. We can only try to make it harder and just have to live with it when it does occur. Despite how mad it can make us.
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  #19  
Old 02-19-2014, 02:31 AM
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howard brock howard brock is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spider_ham View Post
[*]Create a Name and Description field for Lobby games for players to customize.
(ex. Title: "9 Realms" / Desc: "Asgardian and Deity keyword only. No Colossals.") This prevents having to program a routine to access data and/or subjecting all players to an arbitrary list only created by the most active/vocal players.
.
This I agree with.
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  #20  
Old 02-19-2014, 11:06 AM
Orpheus Orpheus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bell View Post
so I missed alot on my drive home...

As for the match that started this discussion, it is going to stand as a win for Orpheus.

Now in regards to stalling, I have discussed the issue with Thebigham and I do not believe he was purposefully stalling. From my understanding it was a close match and already was in bank time. Bigham was taking his time/being diligent to make the right move to try and win, he got a KO and took the lead. Now I can not be sure but from my understanding at this point Orpheus told him to hurry up and end his turn so that Orph got a chance to go before time ran out, which Bigham did. Orph then KO'd one of Bigham's figs retreated his other guys and time ran out with Orph as the winner.

Now I do not know exactly how the conversation between the two of you went but I think it is clear that Bigham felt he was being pressured by Orpheus and accused of cheating when he was not cheating and only trying to figure out the best way to make a play so he could win.

Also I am sure that Orpheus was just trying to make sure that Bigham was not purposefully stalling, and the whole issue was blown out of proportion b/c we had two competitive players both wanting to win their match.
This is, to me, a perfectly accurate description of what happened.

And I do appreciate the fact that Thebigham didn't let the clock run. As it happens, there was some time left after I could make the final hit (not enough for any of us to change the game though).

Quote:
Now in regards to what is cheating on HCO there are really only 3 ways I can see possible for someone to cheat and those are using illegal figs, consistently passing their turn and stalling. Using illegal figs is pretty easy to enforce b/c if someone does such a thing then the other player will tell them and they will have the opportunity to fix their build or take a loss.

Personally I do not think you should ever go more than one turn in a row with out making an action (a real action that gives you a token) as this is as bad as stalling imo. I thought there was a rule that if you did not make an action for three consecutive turns then you lost (might have just been a house rule I used to use tho).
Quote:
So my definition of stalling is simply: purposefully letting the clock run down with the intention to get closer to a time out.
Agreed with this and all the snapped part.

Sometimes both players just take their time playing and don't realise time is running out, this is of course not stalling.

Which brings a question of fairness : when a player is playing slowly and LOSING because of it, should the other one tell him ?

Quote:
I do like Orph's idea of giving the player who's turn it was not when the timer hit 0 another turn.
Well if enough of us like it we could make it an official suggestion.
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