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  #1  
Old 02-18-2014, 07:45 PM
Orpheus Orpheus is offline
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Default Stalling?

I moved this discussion from the league reporting thread so you can discuss here. Please keep the Terms of Service (ToS) in mind when replying and keep it civil. Thank you! Yamah

Orpheus Prime W

TheBigHam L

There is an issue on this game.

Towards the end TBH was ahead, and knew that if I killed one more of his figs I'd win. I felt that he was playing a bit slow so I asked him to please play fast, which he did. I did win the game, it was a matter of one or two minutes and it was over.
He felt cheated because he felt that he should have been allowed to let the clock run down. I tried to explain that stalling was cheating, but he isn't convinced (not seeing the difference between letting the clock run and retreating your figs or passing in the beginning of the game) and I therefore ask for an official explanation and decision on that game.

Just to be clear, on stalling, from the official Tournament Rules.
6.3
Cheating:

Cheating is not permitted. Any attempts by a player to violate the rules of the game either through a deliberate obfuscation or a violation of an obvious, yet unspecified rule (such as bringing loaded dice or stalling) can be summarily disqualified, ejected from the tournament, and/or banned from the venue, at the discretion of the judge and/or venue.
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  #2  
Old 02-18-2014, 08:19 PM
thebigham thebigham is offline
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I am sorry did you just make that up.. what you linked has no mention of the text you provided.

Secondly stalling would have to be defined somewhere also.

Question for you.. would you have said anything if you were in the lead?

Why even have turn timers then? Each player plays as fast as possible and it auto changes turns when no more actions can be performed! And who is to judge what is moving fast and what is someone just thinking out there moves. We all aren't pros at this thing.

Its all subjective unwritten rules and you only tried to enforce because it benefited you and would not have done the same otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orpheus View Post
Orpheus Prime W

TheBigHam L

There is an issue on this game.

Towards the end TBH was ahead, and knew that if I killed one more of his figs I'd win. I felt that he was playing a bit slow so I asked him to please play fast, which he did. I did win the game, it was a matter of one or two minutes and it was over.
He felt cheated because he felt that he should have been allowed to let the clock run down. I tried to explain that stalling was cheating, but he isn't convinced and I therefore ask for an official explanation and decision on that game.

Just to be clear, on stalling, from the official Tournament Rules :

6.3
Cheating:

Cheating is not permitted. Any attempts by a player to violate the rules of the game either through a deliberate obfuscation or a violation of an obvious, yet unspecified rule (such as bringing loaded dice or stalling) can be summarily disqualified, ejected from the tournament, and/or banned from the venue, at the discretion of the judge and/or venue.
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  #3  
Old 02-18-2014, 08:27 PM
Orpheus Orpheus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigham View Post
I am sorry did you just make that up.. what you linked has no mention of the text you provided.
Please don't be insulting. Link rectified.

Quote:
Secondly stalling would have to be defined somewhere also.
No it doesn't have to be. As stated, it's as obvious as loaded dice. We all know exactly what it means. But Bell can clarify it for you.
Quote:
Question for you.. would you have said anything if you were in the lead?
No, I would have SAID nothing. I would have just played fast, as I did in so many games before, even if it wasn't in my advantage. As lots of players here can attest.

Quote:
Why even have turn timers then? Each player plays as fast as possible and it auto changes turns when no more actions can be performed! And who is to judge what is moving fast and what is someone just thinking out there moves. We all aren't pros at this thing.
No we are not. It is subjective. But as you said yourself, it would have been a conscious choice on your part to just let time run out. It is the textbook definition of stalling, ergo cheating.

Quote:
Its all subjective unwritten rules and you only tried to enforce because it benefited you and would not have done the same otherwise.
No I don't, and it is insulting of you to pretend so. You don't know me, but all the regular players here do. Don't presume how I think based on how you think.
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  #4  
Old 02-18-2014, 08:50 PM
thebigham thebigham is offline
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Again stalling is not defined. So I can use my definition you can use yours.

Also who is to judge how long a person should take in a turn? If there is a timer than they should be entitled to use that time as pleased. Why should they be rushed into making a mistake. Not everyone is on the same level as others. Not too mention the UI leaves much to desire.

What you did was wrong in my eyes. But if you are okay with that then so be it. Can you or someone else please post a topic up of these unwritten rules and "fair" gameplay. It should include such topics and how much time is it okay to make an action. Is just passing a turn okay. When you are allowed to not make any actions. What figures can you use and when. Cheese when is it allowed. Does it have to be cheddar.

I am sick and tired as a new player here of being bully for not playing the "right" way. I don't see how a computer game where we all play by the same rules one person can cheat. I am not a computer hacker so how is it cheating if I am playing within the rules of the game!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orpheus View Post
Please don't be insulting. Link rectified.



No it doesn't have to be. As stated, it's as obvious as loaded dice. We all know exactly what it means. But Bell can clarify it for you.


No, I would have SAID nothing. I would have just played fast, as I did in so many games before, even if it wasn't in my advantage. As lots of players here can attest.



No we are not. It is subjective. But as you said yourself, it would have been a conscious choice on your part to just let time run out. It is the textbook definition of stalling, ergo cheating.



No I don't, and it is insulting of you to pretend so. You don't know me, but all the regular players here do. Don't presume how I think based on how you think.
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  #5  
Old 02-18-2014, 08:55 PM
clix0ruk clix0ruk is offline
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Orpheus, stop being a trouble maker. First day back and already trying to ruin things.

Orpheus always grabs his cat, punches it in the face, then wastes time by saying that the cat jumped on him and scratched him, hence he couldn't click end turn.
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  #6  
Old 02-18-2014, 08:58 PM
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howard brock howard brock is offline
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This is my old pet peeve about HCO, one that a few of you have seen me get upset about. Yes stalling is cheating but in HCO there really is not a way to stop it because there is no Judge. In tabletop a Judge would be called over and then that Judge would handle the situation.

Had Bigham chose to ignore your request then there really wasn't anything you could have done about it except for rage about it to everyone. The last time this occurred to me it was against a player here in a tournament. The player had no action to perform as all his figures were double tokened, so he chose to run out all the time (close to four minutes of doing nothing because of his banked time) rather than giving me another turn and allowing me an action whereby I stood a good chance to win the game.

Even though you lost this game BigHam, you have earned a great deal of respect from me by being a ethical player and playing the game correctly.

HCO allows players to abuse/cheat with the timer and unfortunately the system must be set up this way. The only way to correct this would be to record each game and then letting someone look at the recording that could reverse the game outcome if they thought the player was indeed stalling. I doubt this type system will occur anytime in the near future.

I think one thing that HCO could do to help this would be to make all players banked time zero once the five minute mark hit.
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  #7  
Old 02-18-2014, 09:21 PM
Orpheus Orpheus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clix0ruk View Post
Orpheus, stop being a trouble maker. First day back and already trying to ruin things.

Orpheus always grabs his cat, punches it in the face, then wastes time by saying that the cat jumped on him and scratched him, hence he couldn't click end turn.
Clixo, don't joke lol, he'll think you're serious you bum.
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  #8  
Old 02-18-2014, 09:46 PM
Orpheus Orpheus is offline
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[QUOTE=thebigham;17522]Again stalling is not defined. So I can use my definition you can use yours.[QUOTE=thebigham;17522]

Not at all. There is only one definition, and it is used, as I told you before, in all games where a time limit applies, including all Magic-like games.

Quote:
Also who is to judge how long a person should take in a turn? If there is a timer than they should be entitled to use that time as pleased. Why should they be rushed into making a mistake. Not everyone is on the same level as others. Not too mention the UI leaves much to desire.
This is exact and had been debated on forums. There are slow players. This can usually be seen easily enough. I recall vividly a game I lost by time out, against a very slow player, who had been very lucky. I needed only one easy enough die roll to win, but the game timed out because he was playing slowly. It was obvious, though, that he was playing at his normal speed, and that was just bad luck for me. Shit happens.

Quote:
What you did was wrong in my eyes. But if you are okay with that then so be it.
I am totally ok with what happened, and I did nothing but remind you to play at a normal rate. You, instead, did THE RIGHT THING, as I've done myself in several games before. And I am more than ok with that, as it was honest. What bothers me is that you don't consider it as such. Which implies that now that you are aware of how things should go according to us (and the official rules) you would be ready to stall and make it look like you weren't. I hope you wouldn't do that, no matter the opponent or the situation, because that would be cheating, and unfair play.

Quote:
Can you or someone else please post a topic up of these unwritten rules and "fair" gameplay. It should include such topics and how much time is it okay to make an action. Is just passing a turn okay. When you are allowed to not make any actions. What figures can you use and when. Cheese when is it allowed. Does it have to be cheddar.
I believe that some topics might answer already on the question of fairness. If not we will need to do one.

What you do with your actions, how many you play etc, is normal part of the game. In friendly games some players will not retreat, in competition it is perfectly allowed, and there is no reason why it shouldn't, as you make the choice among the actions allowed by the game : each fig acting or not, moving one way or another.

What you do in friendly games is up to you, sometimes we decide to just fight it out instead of taking some figs out of the equation, but there is nothing that you have to do.

Cheese : in friendly games some figs are "banned", the list in on this forum. In competition everything allowed by the rules is fair play.

Quote:
I am sick and tired as a new player here of being bully for not playing the "right" way.
What other instances have made you feel that way ?

New players here are usually helped to understand the game, and to progress. This includes, of course, knowing what is cheating and what is not, what is considered fair by the community and what isn't. This is a first time the issue of stalling has been so hard to explain, in discussions that I've witnessed or been part of.

Quote:
I don't see how a computer game where we all play by the same rules one person can cheat. I am not a computer hacker so how is it cheating if I am playing within the rules of the game!
The rules. Of the game. Including the tournament rules, and fairness conduct.

We play by the same rules, including not stalling. We could also include not hacking our opponent's computer, or menacing to bomb his house if he wins. Obviously we don't need to say that this is wrong, and it has been decided long ago that stalling was, too. None of the above are stated in basic Heroclix Rules, for obvious reasons. Hence the ruling cited above.

As Howard stated, it is hard to judge stalling here, which is the more reason for us being careful about it. Usually when time begins to run I play fast, let the other player play fast too, and I pray that time doesn't run out on me. As we don't know exactly when it will run out, most of the times stalling "discreetly" isn't possible, as it might be too much, not enough... In many games I've played I knew that in a turn I could win, but in the next my opponent would, but with one more I could etc. So we just play, fast as we can, and get our actions in, and the rest is random.
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  #9  
Old 02-18-2014, 09:51 PM
mwposse mwposse is offline
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I want to echo want Howard said about TBH. He was playing against a respected veteran. He was told about one of the "unwrtitten rules" of HCO and he followed that rule. That is classy and he should be commended.

One point that I strongly disagree with though is this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by howard brock View Post

I think one thing that HCO could do to help this would be to make all players banked time zero once the five minute mark hit.
I am an incredibly slow player. I didn't even know you could possibly have that much bank time at the end of the game because I'm too busy running out of bank time in the middle of an HSS attack during the 3rd turn of the game. But I am slow during the entire game. My particular reason has to do with my OCD but there are many legit reasons a person may be playing slowly. For example: They are new, they have lag, they are having a problem with the UI, or... they are thinking . My favorite part about Heroclix is that it involves a ton of thinking and strategy. The last 5 minutes of the game may be the time when a player needs to think the most. Resetting bank time at that point would be incredibly unfair. It will also be incredibly hard on new players. We need this site to grow. The only way to do that is to cater to new players. If we make it even harder for new players during the last 5 minutes of the game, we are definitely not catering to them.

Before we start messing with the clock, how about we actually post the unwritten rules of HCO somewhere? I know I wish I had them when I first started.
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  #10  
Old 02-18-2014, 09:55 PM
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Yamah Yamah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwposse View Post
- snip -
Before we start messing with the clock, how about we actually post the unwritten rules of HCO somewhere? I know I wish I had them when I first started.
There is a thread on unwritten rules on these forums :P
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